I have presented my beliefs repeatedly and still you throw out this little beauty:

"Starting from fundamental terms e.g. "authority". If anybody can decide whether a pope as an open, notorious heretic lost his office then we have 1,400,000,000 superpopes"

You simply can not help but revert to your default position, "no one has the authority to depose the Pope."

Are you and Carol H the same person? Seems like you are.

No one is talking about deposing the Pope. That is not the topic at all.
But everyone is responsible for working out his own salvation in fear and trembling.

You are responsible for using your brain.

You are responsible for making the choices that pertain directly to your own salvation.

And then we have this gem:
"Actually these two sentences seem to be contradictory. If the Faith is unchangeable then no pope is able to violate it (even if he would try)."

And YES.....that is exactly my point. No one is able to change the TRUE FAITH. ONLY A FALSE POPE WOULD EVEN TRY. The truths of the Faith remain inviolable; however, the falsity of the Pope would be revealed.

@V.R.S. I know you are either a shill or you are a very limited person who loves to play the expert and dazzle people with your keen intellect. Rather than throw out little snippets that really are non sequiturs, and are just about you having a supercilious 'come back', why don't you try to see the whole picture.

See the Church of Christ in its entirety, as Christ instituted it, and as it was preserved until Vatican II. The Faith has not been preserved. The Faith has been changed. The Faith was changed at Vatican II with the change in the Mass, and then with the change in virtually everything else. It is no longer the Catholic Faith of my childhood. No amount of legalize is going to alter that fact.

But the Faith, the True Faith can not change.

The only logical conclusion is that what is posing as the Catholic Church is not the Catholic Church

And the men posing as the Pope are not the Pope.

That does not mean that a person who recognizes this fact is in schism. I did not break away from the Catholic Faith, and I never will.

What is posing as the Catholic Faith broke away from me and all the Faithful.

One of the problems concerning these issues is that so many people making pronouncements don't really know what they're talking about. They think if you can find a loop hole to somehow exclude some heretical papal declarations from being binding on the faithful, well then everything is okay. It doesn't really matter that he's a heretic, we really don't have to believe or do what he says, and the doctrine of papal infallibility is still true.

In other words, they're exactly like the Pharisees. They are like lawyers, always trying to find some authority in law to bolster their case that everything is still exactly as it was and everything is okay. When clearly it isn't okay. They will never really consider the SPIRIT of the law. Papal infallibility in matters of faith and morals means that you can TRUST the Pope to preserve the truths of the Faith intact and entire. The Faith will never be changed into something else because God does not change and Truth does not change and God is Truth.

The Popes since Pius XII HAVE violated this sacred trust in word and deed. And anyone who knows the Faith and has been paying attention KNOWS they can not be trusted when they speak on matters of Faith and morals. They are not trust worthy. They have broken Faith with God and with the Church.

There is no way to reconcile this fact with a declaration of Papal infallibility.

I abbreviated the syllogism believing that it would be understood that I was referring to the pronouncements on Papal infallibility of Vatican I. Of course the Pope is human and makes mistakes and commits sins....please. It makes you look like an idiot.

The NO rite is openly heretical. The mass is a sacrifice, infallibly declared at the Council of Trent and a top tier "must be believed" tenet of the true Faith. See the above reference.

I am not going to argue about whether this Pope and the alleged Popes since Pius XII are heretics. They are. Formal heretics. If they weren't, the Society of Pious X wouldn't be telling people it's okay to "resist" them. But, if you don't know the heresies and errors in morality that the current person sitting on the Throne has stated informally and formally, you can refer back to one of my previous posts.

The true Church has no defect. The true Church is perfect without stain. A true Pope will be protected from error and is infallible when speaking on matters of Faith and morals.

You started off trying to pass off everything the Pope declares that is less than first tier pronouncements, including encyclicals and Vatican II teaching, as part of a defective human element which spouts "just opinions" and are is safe to ignore. You further claimed that Church doctrine has not been changed.

When it was obvious that you didn't know what you were talking about, you switched up your argument to "no one can depose the Pope" "you must not declare on our king," which is laughable considering that you said everything our king says "is just his opinion" and can be safely ignored.

I have read a great deal trying to find a way to accept two contradictory pronouncements coming from the Church. I have a great deal of respect for some of the priests who have spoken on this topic, and they come from Tradition.

It doesn't really matter if "no one can judge the Pope." No one IS going to formally judge the Pope so that point is moot. Pretty much the entire Church is in a state of apostasy. No one is going to formally judge the Pope. And there are some priests who say it doesn't matter whether there is a Pope or not, you can just carry on practicing the Faith whether there is or there isn't. The most important thing is not to schism. The man that wrote that, a very knowledgeable priest, wrote it in 1991. He spoke at length about the heresies of JPII and the incredible things he promoted. But, his solution ie. "just keep your head down and keep going," doesn't really seem all that prudent considering where we are now 30+ years later. And the priests that say these things offered the mass themselves, they didn't have to worry about how they COULD practice the face in times like these.

All of the men who have addressed the subject of bad Popes lived in a different time and could never have imagined that the entire Church has been changed into a different, heretical Church and the man on the Throne almost never makes a statement or performs an action that ISN'T heretical, scandalous, or evil, and the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass has been effectively banned.
Seriously, what do you think any of them would have said if they saw the Pope place a pagan idol on the altar during Mass? Their minds could not expand that far.

It would certainly appear that the Gates of Hell have prevailed.

The priest I referred to who said that "it doesn't matter if there's a Pope," completely failed to address the issue which causes me the most difficulty.

Papal infallibility and Church indefectability.

These are infallible doctrines. No arguing them.

So there is only one way to reconcile the contradiction between the reality of the situation we find ourselves in and these pronouncements. If someone can come up with something else, I'll be happy to listen:

This is the syllogism:

The Church is indefectable and the Pope is infallible.

The Church has a defect (the NO Mass is not the Mass of the RC Church/just one example) and the Pope is a heretic.

Therefore, what is pasing as the RC Church can not be the RC Church and
The person sitting on the Throne of Peter can not be the Pope.

That's all I got. I can't be any clearer. I know the response is consistently to pick a sentence out of context, argue it, and then go on a little virtue signaling spiel.

"They" have said and done an incredible number of things that officially contradict church doctrine, and that unofficially contradict church doctrine. I have taken the time to list a great number of them. Do you not comprehend that these things that they have said and done officially and unofficially contradict church doctrine, including some of the encyclicals from Vatican II? Is there something wrong with your mind?

I feel like I'm conversing with a crazy person. Seriously. It doesn't matter whether anyone declares the seat of Peter filled or empty. Read the list of things that Francis and those since Vatican II have done to undermine and sabotage the true Faith yet you and your crowd believe you have to keep backing him? Your entire reasoning is based on the fact that there was no change to a Cannon?

There is a Canon from the Council of Trent which I posted above. It very specifically and clearly relates what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is all about and what it was about when Christ instituted it. This infallible Canon bears no resemblance to what is currently passing as Catholic Liturgy; not in words, actions, or intention, no resemblance. It is an entirely different liturgy which embraces an entirely different theology from what Christ taught and what the Church taught for 1960 years.

It really is unbelievable that men who offered the True Sacrifice, and I'm sure did know and did teach the Faith, would actually go along with the NO Mass.

How did that happen? I know huge numbers quit the priesthood, the religious life, stopped going to Mass and left the Church.

But they kept getting new seminarians and they kept churning out these egregious lies. And now we have an entire clerical body that doesn't seem to have a clue, or honestly just doesn't care about Christ and what he taught, and what He did, and the entire point of why he established his Church, what He wanted, what honors him. He doesn't enter into the equation at all. It makes me really sad that so many are so lost.

It's ridiculous really if you have even a little intelligence and you have a little knowledge of the Bible, it's all about Old Testament men offering sacrifice to God from Cain and Abel to Christ. These sacrifices were the prefiguring which was brought to perfection in Christ, and it states exactly this in the explanation from the Council of Trent, but somehow they turned the liturgy into a happy meal and clown show. And everything they do indicates that they have absolutely no belief in the Real Presence. They are in your face with it: Communion in the hand, passing the host down the aisle, throwing it in plants and on the floor, the Pope with Pachamama on the "table" during mass, and putting a volleyball next to the tabernacle, which isn't really any worse than the Assisi debacle that JPII created and their bacchanal youth orgies.

The point is: who would WANT to be associated with whatever this Church is?
This Church is against Christ. It is an anti-Church and the person sitting on the Throne is an anti-Christ. The liturgy is sacrilegious just by the fact that it replaces the true liturgy and the dress and demeanor of those who attend it are sacrilegious.
No matter how "reverent" their fake Mass is, it's still a sacrilege.

But, I have one more point to make which I think MIGHT awaken some people who are lost in diabolical disorientation: did you ever hear anyone anywhere actually explain the difference between the true mass and the fake mass from a theological point of view? No, they won't do that. They won't ever go into the theology because that would reveal their machinations...their duplicity.... their heresy... their entire evil subversion of the infallibly taught intention of Jesus
Christ at HIS institution of the SACRIFICE OF THE MASS at the Last Supper.

No. They never do. Since day one they talk about the aesthetics of the true mass, the reverence, the beauty, the piety, the way it makes them feel, the Latin, the incense every single thing BUT....BUT the MEANING....THE DIFFERENCE IN THE THEOLOGY...

Anyway, it is clear that I will never get through to you. You are in some crazy state between ignorance and denial and you simply make up whatever you want to believe and think if you drape some rah rah bullshit around it, you're being convincing. You're lost. Hope you get found.

So, if the current Pope is placing himself and the entire world-wide body of the Church squarely against something that IS written in Canon Law: from the Council of Trent Session XXII - The sixth under the Supreme Pontiff, Pius IV, celebrated on the seventeenth day of September, 1562.
Since under the former Testament, according to the testimony of the Apostle Paul, there was no perfection because of the weakness of the Levitical priesthood, there was need, God the Father of mercies so ordaining, that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchisedech,[1] our Lord Jesus Christ, who might perfect and lead to perfection as many as were to be sanctified. He, therefore, our God and Lord, though He was by His death about to offer Himself once upon the altar of the cross to God the Father that He might there accomplish an eternal redemption, nevertheless, that His priesthood might not come to an end with His death,[2] at the last supper, on the night He was betrayed, that He might leave to His beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice, such as the nature of man requires, whereby that bloody sacrifice once to be accomplished on the cross might be represented, the memory thereof remain even to the end of the world, and its salutary effects applied to the remission of those sins which we daily commit, declaring Himself constituted a priest forever according to the order of Melchisedech,[3] offered up to God the Father His own body and blood under the form of bread and wine, and under the forms of those same things gave to the Apostles, whom He then made priests of the New Testament, that they might partake, commanding them and their successors in the priesthood by these words to do likewise: Do this in commemoration of me,[4] as the Catholic Church has always understood and taught. For having celebrated the ancient Passover which the multitude of the children of Israel sacrificed in memory of their departure from Egypt,[5] He instituted a new Passover, namely, Himself, to be immolated under visible signs by the Church through the priests in memory of His own passage from this world to the Father, when by the shedding of His blood He redeemed and delivered us from the power of darkness and translated us into his kingdom.[6] And this is indeed that clean oblation which cannot be defiled by any unworthiness or malice on the part of those who offer it; which the Lord foretold by Malachias was to be great among the Gentiles,[7] and which the Apostle Paul has clearly indicated when he says, that they who are defiled by partaking of the table of devils cannot be partakers of the table of the Lord,[8] understanding by table in each case the altar. It is, finally, that [sacrifice] which was prefigured by various types of sacrifices during the period of nature and of the law,[9] which, namely, comprises all the good things signified by them, as being the consummation and perfection of them all.

That is the CANONICALLY DEFINED TEACHING OF THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH SINCE 1562. IT IS ALSO THE FOUNDATIONAL BELIEF OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. IT IS INFALLIBLY DEFINED AND IS A FIRST TIER DOCTRINE. THAT MEANS THAT YOU CAN'T DENY THIS AND STILL BE CATHOLIC.

SO NOW WE COME TO YOUR POINT: AS LONG AS ALL OF THE POPES SINCE PIUS XII HAVE NOT FORMALLY DECLARED A CHURCH CANON OPPOSED TO THIS DOCTRINE, LIKE THE TEACHING THAT THE MASS IS NOT A SACRIFICE BUT A CELEBRATORY MEAL, THEN IT'S ALL OKAY.

ALTHOUGH THEY TEACH A DIFFERENT THEOLOGY OF THE MASS IN LONG EXPLANATORY DISCOURSES, AND THEY ACT LIKE IT'S A DIFFERENT MASS BY CHANGING ALMOST ALL OF THE WORDS AND GESTURES, AND THEY SAY THAT THE OLD MASS IS NO LONGER PART OF THEIR ECCLESIOLOGY, AND THEY FORBID THE OLD MASS TO BE OFFERED, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T WRITE ANYTHING DOWN IN THE CANONS, THEN NONE OF THAT COUNTS FOR ANYTHING AND WE CAN IGNORE IT AND THE POPE, AND JUST GO ON LIKE IT'S THE SAME CHURCH.

If they DID write their heresies down formally, they couldn't as easily get away with them. Don't you see that? They can't say something that DIRECTLY contradicts the infallible teachings of the Church, because then they would be exposed as the heretics that they are, and they couldn't continue on creating a different church with different creeds of their own choosing. You said it yourself, which makes me strongly question your sincerity: the way they "interpret" the law is often at variance with, or in opposition to, the letter of the law and they know this, that is part of how they subvert and undermine.

This is the last time I will respond to you because there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. These are not "personal opinions" about areas not related to faith and morals. These are from the documents of Vatican II and the documents ie encyclicals written by this and other alleged Popes. They are part of the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium which faithful Catholics are bound to give assent to ie. hold and believe to be true. And they contradict prior formal doctrines infallibly taught by the Church prior to Vatican II. There is also the promise that the Pope will not err on matters of morality. And I have spoken to things he has formally
proclaimed which violate all prior teaching concerning moral and ethical behavior, and which he has demonstrated with his egregiously sacrilegious, scandalous and demonic actions, and through his encouraging the faithful to commit immoral actions by receiving a toxin derived from the murder of innocents, or by relativizing intrinsically perverse sexual behavior, or sexual acts outside the bounds of matrimony. This was done formally in an encyclical. This was not voiced on a plane ride as his opinion.

I believe that you are mouthing things you have heard from people who are unwilling to face the truth of the situation we find ourselves in. People want to believe that no matter what a pope says, does, or advocates, it is all excluded from the promise of papal infallibility, so it's all okay. This is not true.
As Catholics we are bound to assent to the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium because the Pope is excluded from error when he speaks on matters of faith and morals. He doesn't have to issue dogma from the chair of Peter to be protected.

I have given many, many examples of the errors and the horribly evil and scandalous pronouncements and behavior of this alleged pope. Not opinions about climate change, but formal declarations regarding the faith and moral behavior of Catholics. This is not someone anyone could possibly trust to pronounce Catholic Truth as it has stood for 2,000 years. Just regarding basic Catholic theology his errors are legion.

The final proof is the statement that the Traditional Catholic Mass does not represent the ecclesiology of his church.
Do you understand what that means? He is saying that the mass that was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper, the Mass which was always held to be the formal liturgy of the Catholic religion, the recreation of the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary as an offering for the sins of the world, does not represent the belief of the church which he heads.
That church, the church of Francis, believes that the mass is a celebratory meal.

It doesn't just ignore the sacrificial nature of the Mass, it formally rejects that doctrine and embraces an entirely Protestant worship service because Martin Luther hated anything that smacked of sacrifice. The true mass of Christ has been rejected by Francis' church and replaced entirely by a heretical Protestant liturgy and theology.

What do you think would have happened if they boldly proclaimed that to the Catholics of 1965 when they introduced their Novus Ordo. No, in 1965 they told Catholics they were only going to change the words from Latin to English. They lied and lied and obfuscated and incrementally introduced change after change until the old religion was completely replaced by a totally different Faith. Not the Faith of Christ. A horrible ape of the true Faith.

You are wrong. The Popes after Pius XII HAVE changed and contradicted DOCTRINES, not one but multiple DOCTRINES held infallibly. They HAVE changed the Church in almost all aspects. Learn the Faith. This Pope recently said that the Latin Mass, the Mass of all times, no longer reflects the ecclesiology of what he calls the Catholic Church. He encouraged people to get a toxic vaccine created from the murder of innocent humans. That's an error in a matter of morality. He has pronounced that adulterous, unmarried, and homosexual unions are situationally okay...and those involved can receive Communion, and of course, he stated that homosexual unions can be blessed. These are errors in matters of morality and contradict previous infallible teachings. He stated that capital punishment is never permitted. That is a contradiction of previous infallible Church teaching. He stated that prior Church doctrine can "evolve" into something else. That's an error in infallible doctrine. He placed a demon idol on the altar during his churchs' worship service, a sacrilege, and a scandal and he justified it, that's an unbelievable error in a matter of doctrine and morality. He placed a volleyball next to the tabernacle on the High Altar. That is another public sacrilege, a scandal, and an error in a matter of morals. These sacrileges reflect his denial and debasement of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, another error in morality and doctrine. And he and all of the post-Vatican II Popes have committed in word and deed grievous errors and contradicted infallible Church teachings regarding ecumenism. He stated that other heretical sects, not Catholic, have Truth and can offer something to the one True Church, that is a contradiction of doctrine. These are only a few of the things the men who have been occupying the Vatican have done. Learn the Faith. They are not Catholic Popes. The Chair of Peter is empty. Learn the True Faith.

Palestine has no army. Palestine has no air force. The Palestinians have no rights. They live walled off from the rest of Israel in an outdoor concentration camp. They have lived this way for 75 years. How can you possibly say there is a war between unarmed prisoners and their keepers? This is purely a genocide while the whole world watches. The Pope knows the circumstances under which the Palestinians suffer, yet he does not have the the moral fortitude to advocate for them. He is an evil man.

I posted this in April. Since then the Israelis corralled 1.5 million Palestinians into the southern city of Rafah. The population before the "war" was 300,000. There is one toilet for every 400 people. On May 5, they blocked any passage into the city, and effectively removed all humanitarian aide including water, fuel and food, which was very inadequate to begin with. For 16 days they have cut off the supply of water in 100 degree heat.
There is no one left alive in Rafah. The Palestinians are all dead.
They died of dehydration and disease, men, women and children in complete filth and degradation.

Although the entire world watches in horror as the Zionists slaughter tens of thousands of innocents, at least 15,000 children and babies (although it seems like they stopped counting long ago); Pope Francis remains staunchly impartial for fear of offending his Jewish masters. Hospitals, schools, universities, businesses, and almost all forms of shelter have been destroyed. The people have been without adequate food and clean water for months. Mass graves containing hundreds of Palestinian hospital patients, hospital workers, the elderly, children, with hands bound have recently been unearthed. Yet Pope Francis has nothing to say. Nothing.

He actually has the incredible nerve when asked directly about the slaughtered children of Gaza to bring up the Ukraine. The Israelis have murdered a minimum of 15,000 children in 6 months. And there are thousands more buried in the rubble, missing limbs, burned, crippled, and orphaned. 600 children have died in the Ukraine in two years and two months. Yet the Pope wants to pretend there is parity. He is comparing the deaths of 600 children to the deaths of more than 60,000 children. That is how many Palestinian children would die if the same pace were kept over the time the Ukraine war has lasted.

Are there any Catholics in the world who can fully process the total moral bankruptcy of this Pope? And in order to maintain his impeccable neutrality, he doesn't even actually mention the Islamic Palestinians, only the tiny number of Catholic Arabs that he "calls every day." Totally disgusting beyond belief. There are no words. There are no words. How long God. How long.

One of the doctrines of the Catholic Church is that the Pope is infallible and the Church is indefectible. If the person on the throne of Peter undermines the Faith and changes the teachings of the true Church, as all of the Popes have done since Paul VI, then they are not Popes. You can't say you belong to the True Church but the Popes are in error so I don't have to obey them. You are going against the True Church when you refuse to obey the pope and mentally acquiesce to his dictates. It is the recognize and resist group that are in error and behaving like Protestants who pick and choose when and if they should obey the Pope.

Probably because everyone has to do something in order to participate. It's all part of the New Church. People running around doing things . But they also have people who bring Communion to the sick and the elderly who can't go to mass. So what is wrong with these two giving each other Communion in the New Church? It's no different. I'm not approving of any of it, but how can you condemn it under their rules?